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    Starcraft ASL Season 9 Grand Finals match discussion thread

    5 years ago

    Starcraft ASL Season 9 Grand Finals match discussion thread

    ASL Season 9 Grand Finals match discussion thread

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 03:10 PM PDT

    ​

    Liquipedia Tournament Page. Includes a regularly updated bracket visual as well as timestamps

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    YouTube stream (English)

    AfreecaTV stream (English)

    AfreecaTV stream (Korean)

    AfreecaTV stream (Spanish)

    AfreecaTV stream (Chinese)

    AfreecaTV stream (Russian)

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    The set is bo7

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    Scoreboard

    ZerO/Queen 2
    Light 0

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    If you've missed any of the previous groups, VOD's are available at AfreecaTV's YouTube channel and spoiler free on sc2links.com.

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    If you've read this far, do also check out the event calendar on tl.net. There's plenty of Starcraft going on before and after this event!

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    Enjoy the games!

    submitted by /u/TheGoatPuncher
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    10 years

    Posted: 26 Apr 2020 12:07 AM PDT

    My life for Aiur.

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 12:30 PM PDT

    Let's play Protoss

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 03:21 PM PDT

    Aye where my Terran bruddas at?

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 08:30 AM PDT

    Starcraft is a complicated game, but some things are intuitively obvious even to beginners

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 09:55 AM PDT

    We wrote our Bachelor's Thesis on StarCraft II & Data Science and scored 97/100. AMA!

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 04:01 AM PDT

    EDIT: THE AMA HAS OFFICIALLY CONCLUDED

    Thank you to all those who took part in this AMA and/or read the thesis.

    Also thanks to the mods of /r/starcraft for sticky:ing today's and yesterday's threads.

    If you have any more questions about us or the work that we did, feel free to still post in this thread. However, we cannot promise that we will get back to you within short.

    Hello!

    We are six Swedish students at Chalmers University of Technology who wrote the Bachelor's thesis: Clustering and Classification of Time Series in Real-Time Strategy Games - A machine learning approach for mapping StarCraft II games to clusters of game state time series while limited by fog of war which can be found here(see below) and the graphical showcase poster can be found here(see below).

    EDIT: Our web-hosted site exceeded its maximum bandwith limit from all the downloads. You should be able to find the thesis here and the poster here, instead.

    Our Github repository, and our data, can be found here. (We apologize for the unorganization of the repository.)

    Abstract:

    Real-time strategy (RTS) games feature vast action spaces and incomplete information, thus requiring lengthy training times for AI-agents to master them at the level of a human expert. Based on the inherent complexity and the strategical interplay between the players of an RTS game, it is hypothesized that data sets of played games exhibit clustering properties as a result of the actions made by the players. These clusters could potentially be used to optimize the training process of AI-agents, and gain unbiased insight into the gameplay dynamics. In this thesis, a method is presented to discern such clusters and classify an ongoing game according to which of these clusters it most closely resembles, limited to the perspective of a single player. Six distinct clusters have been found in StarCraft II using hierarchical clustering over time, all of which depend on different combinations of game pieces and the timing of their acquisitions in the game. An ongoing game can be classified, using neural networks and random forests, as a member of some cluster with accuracies ranging from 83% to 96% depending on the amount of information provided.

    The TL;DR of the Abstract:

    We were able to classify ongoing games of StarCraft II, even when limited to the view of a single player, to meaningful clusters of game states created by analyzing tens of thousands of high-level games. Our results can be used for metagame/strategy analysis, win-prediction, etc, all in real-time.

    What we did:

    You can find the showcase poster we made which graphically presents the work we did here here.

    1. Sampling and parsing of 10'000 PvP StarCraft II replays of top 5% players where the game length was between 1-33 minutes long and on patch 4.2.1 - 4.6.2. Each replay becomes a data point containing each players buildings/units at each 30 second interval.

    2. Cluster analysis on the time series of game states to find distinct clusters representing meaningful differences in gameplay. I.e. can we make groupings of the data points from the last step?

    3. Training classifiers by mapping games to clusters of game state time series while limited by fog of war. - We used both a Neural Network and Random Forests to attempt to classify a game seen from one player's point of view to the clusters calculated in the last step.

    4. Analyzing the cluster contents by using feature importance analysis; which specific units/buildings are good predictors of the given clusters.

    The four of us who will partake in today's AMA:

    We will slowly answer questions asked in yesterday's thread here. If you post any new questions in this thread, we will try to answer them as well! We will be around for the coming 4-5 hours. (EDIT: Thank you for today! The AMA is officially over.)

    - John Segerstedt, DATX02-19-81

    submitted by /u/JohnSegerstedt
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    TerranCraft.com :: Eight Years of TerranCraft

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 10:52 AM PDT

    ASL S9 Finals Live - starts in 10 mins

    Posted: 26 Apr 2020 12:51 AM PDT

    I am willing to be appart from my Starcraft 1 Collectors Edition no.#0129. The key was never used,it's region free. Anyone interested?

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 09:32 AM PDT

    Why the TSL 5 format is bad

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 06:33 AM PDT

    Hi,

    imo its very nice to have another big SC2 event, but tbh the format is really bad.

    The format for this tournament is supposed to be a 24 player Double elimination bracket. this leads to several problems together with the qualifier format choosen:

    1. Invited players get a free win in the first round hence having an easier way to more prize money and EPT points than 16 (of the 20) players that qualified.

    2. Since there are still 4 spots left for players to get a free win in the first round TSL organisers choose to have 4 qualifiers (2 for kr, 1 for eu and 1 for na) that award 3 spots each and 2 qualifiers (one for kr and one for na) that award 2 spots each. The qualifiers with 4 spots grant the winner a free win in the first round too. The problem with that (on top of the slot distribution between eu and na server qualifiers) is that players that already qualified but didn't get the Round 2 seed (aka made 1st place) are not allowed to play in another qualifier (KR#2/NA#1, depending on region) and try to get that seeding. This is unfair towards Reynor/Gabe/TBD(probably Clem) and Solar as they were able to qualify in their first run, while the player that makes 1st place in the KR#2/NA#1 qualifier might only do it in his 2nd run. So this now will probably result in players who perform worse in the qualifiers getting a better seed, more prize money and EPT points from that.

    As i don't want to just criticize here a possible solution to fix those problems (it would need the players having to play more matches and some minor changes in prize money and ept points split though):

    Just play a group stage with 4 groups of 6 players each in round robin format (like at iem) and determine seeding for a 12 player double elimination bracket from that.

    This way all of the above listed problems could be solved, the prize would basically be an additional 34 matches, which could be offset in part by maybe reducing a few Bo5s from the 24 player double elim. bracket to now being Bo3 (maybe even Bo2 in the groups like with the last offline HSC) instead.

    EDIT: Even though a friend of mine now profits from the 2nd point i listed above, i still think the format is bad.

    submitted by /u/hjpalpha
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    ASL Grand Finals live now! https://youtu.be/EnoV2c_LYnU

    Posted: 26 Apr 2020 01:16 AM PDT

    Returning player looking for fan campaign recommendations.

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 11:03 PM PDT

    Haven't played the game since WoL, am currently going through all 4 campaigns and having a blast.

    Gameplay wise, Nova might be my favorite, the rts maps in it are probably the most fun I've had throughout, challenging yet fun objectives.

    Looking for more SP campaigns to play through afterwards. I only know of Mass Recall. Thank you in advance!

    submitted by /u/ozusteapot
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    GSL Code S 2020 S1 | Ro24 | Group E | Rundown

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 06:01 AM PDT

    Another day in quarantine, another Code S show to make it ten times better.

    Group E:

    • Living Legends, with astonishingly just 1 Code S trophy between them: TY, Dear

    • Underdog Supreme with some untapped potential: Armani

    • Days of Future Past, the once upon a time Champion known for going Marine Tank forever: Bomber

    Success is not earned, it's rented & rent is due every day. In other words, when asking the question "what have you done for me lately" you could argue both TY and Dear would be found lacking. Still, there's a reason they were considered clear favorites heading into today and no amount of shaky play was going to change that when their competition in the Group were Armani - promising Zerg, yet with admittedly a few too many consistent flaws - and the returning Bomber, who no matter what his once upon a time status has certainly felt like a player that's out of time.

    Warning: Spoilers Ahead, Obviously

    What can I even say except he's back, TY smashed the mirror and then did some sort of alchemy fusion between the spirits of sOs and Maru, bringing Terran Mech to life with truly unpredictable play backed up by ungodly macro to secure 1st place in style.

    Then, after a pretty awful series overall, Dear did still bring enough to the table to grab 2nd for himself in what honestly felt like underwhelming fashion against a player he'd already dismissed not even hours prior.

    M1 | TY [ 2 : 0 ] Bomber | ★★☆☆☆ | Thank You, Next

    • Golden Wall | It was Bomber's cheesy map pick first so TY decided he wasn't playing a normal mirror game on it, proxying two Barracks and keeping one at home, building three Reapers at a time and smashing into his unsuspecting opponent's flimsy defenses to pretty much instantly end his life by killing an unreasonable amount of SCVs.

    • Nightshade | On his own pick TY opted for macro and considering who his opponent was the game went incredibly smooth from there. The clear favorite proved why that was the case, getting a faster 3rd CC, taking it on location first, moving out quicker and while Bomber did seemingly keep up for a while he was genuinely one step behind at all times. The underdog tried diving into TY's base when he caught him kind of in the middle of the map, however a virtually perfect collapse deleted his army and from there it was all TY until the end, setting up a siege on his opponent while expanding back at home to grow his lead. TY took his 4th base first, got Vikings quicker, maxed before his opponent, had better upgrades, basically the guy was out of control, absolutely unwinnable for Bomber on every level.

    M2 | Dear [ 2 : 0 ] Armani | ★★☆☆☆ | Stockton Slapped

    • Ever Dream | As soon as the hatch block occurred you could bet your life on Dear having a majorly aggressive followup, which came in the form of Glaives pressure. Unfortunately for the Protoss his sloppy play at his wall meant Armani got to scout literally everything and make the Adepts essentially worthless. When behind Dark Shrine, however, gave Dear some new life and even as he lost two out of the four DTs making it look like the Zerg had already won, the distraction allowed Glaives to do their thing and after that even the Templar got to execute regardless, resulting in over 20 Drone kills. Armani tried to build his worker count back up, sadly peace was never really an option as four Immortals and their friends walked across the map to simply kill him.

    • Nightshade | The switch up to Oracles was nicely handled by the Zerg, who took minimal damage and even set up for a pretty solid timing attack with Nydus relying on Queen Ravager to run it down. Unfortunately for him, the lack of detection sealed his fate, since when the rush arrived at the Protoss gates literally four Dark Templar alone slapped the life out of him, before basically whispering into his ear "get out".

    M3 | TY [ 2 : 1 ] Dear | ★★★☆☆ | Machine vs Man

    • Eternal Empire | Dear thought he was being sneaky when he tried and failed hiding a Stargate, while TY pulled a page out of the Jin Air playbook and not only went Mech in TvP he also hid a base in a random corner of the map. Even after the shenanigans eventually got scouted and obliterated, the macro god that is the Terran somehow stayed ahead despite technically being stuck on 3 bases versus 5 and although the upgrade lead and Carrier switch should have given the Protoss a leg up it was an impossible to conceive attack from TY with mostly Banshee Cyclone that absolutely tore through enemy territory, killing Probes galore and two bases with ease. The bizarro army of Colossi Immortals and Carriers then desperately attacked into a turtling Mech Terran, which meant TY literally ate him alive, bringing the supply difference to over 80+ in order to make it clear this one's finished.

    • Nightshade | The proxy Armory, rush to drilling claws and endless waves of failed Widow Mine drops made it look like we were watching Maru play TvP from over a year ago. Unfortunately for TY, it turns out he's simply not mechanically gifted enough to emulate a flawed style into a win, so when the Terran decided it was Mech time again all Dear had to do was catch him one time out of position and use all that inefficiency to instantly end the game after smashing into the flimsy defense around the 3rd/4th CC.

    • Golden Wall | It was then turtle time Mech for TY on the gimmicky map and honestly it looked unfair as the Terran secured an unbreakable three base position & things spiraled from there. While the Protoss kept taking more and more bases, the supply told the real story as the macro monster did his thing, maxing out first - even taking an undefendable gold base for the hell of it - and then moving out with a million hellions and taking a fight that may have looked weird, while a voice inside our heads kept screaming "LOOK AT THE SUPPLY". The following "base race" was simply hilarious with both players maxed out, however TY's production wasn't broken while Dear's infrastructure was obliterated and his army got cut in half, meaning as the Terran finally hit 3/3 upgrades it was only a matter of time before TY mercilessly beat down what little was left in his way to 1st place.

    M4 | Armani [ 2 : 1 ] Bomber | ★★☆☆☆ | 1D Chess

    • Simulacrum | In a slightly surprising turn of events, Bomber opted to slow himself down by going for a weirdly timed Marauder Hellbat attack and while he did kind of catch the Zerg sleeping, he didn't fully pounce on the opportunity. From there things stabilized and although he was behind in econ the Terran macro machine stayed in the game regardless, at one point doubling his opponent's army supply in ridiculous fashion. Armani however not only took five bases, he set up beautifully timed counter attacks and even caught the main Terran force off-guard, shutting down any real chance Bomber had to close this out in time, resulting in a desperate Tank-light push that the once upon a time Champion simply didn't have the control to pull off for the win and as the upgrade lead closed, worker gap became insurmountable and Viper clouds started raining down it was clear the game was done.

    • Nightshade | Aside from Armani scouting for proxy Barracks like his life depended on it, nothing really happened at the start of the game so we smoothly transitioned into three bases for the parade pusher and four hatcheries for the Zerg. Normally getting surrounded and losing all your Tanks would be grounds for disqualification, however when you're building 13 Marines at a time and just one Tank to support them, you clearly aren't playing by the rules already so what's one more infraction. With a combination of brute force, sheer fucking will and Armani not having enough larvae to deal with this type of play, Bomber ended up smashing through as if it was WoL all over again.

    • Eternal Empire | It was a literal rinse and repeat on this map, all the way from the frantic scouting by the Zerg to the Terran's complete lack of interest in any real action before setting up his engine for the parade push. The crucial difference came in Armani's decision to go for Spire instead of just Ling Bane and that choice ended up sealing the deal as a devastating Muta Ling counter attack forced Bomber to turn around, however it was already too late as around a million SCVs had died. With even army supply and no room for error, the Terran tried to push desperately into the Zerg but was quickly cleaned up accordingly in a truly classic checkmate move by Armani.

    M5 | Dear [ 2 : 0 ] Armani | ★☆☆☆☆ | Fiesta

    • Simulacrum | It was Glaives time again for Dear and not putting a hold position unit in his wall to go with the build. Seeing as his plan was of course ruined by this course of action, the Protoss then went into Immortal Blink and a third Nexus, however Armani wasn't having any of it this time, opting for a low econ Ravager Ling rush that killed the third Nexus with ease. The following siege slash lockdown from the Zerg would have given him the win, if only Dear's Adept backdoor hadn't been so successful, murdering Drones and as a result reinforcements alike, before then using a Warp Prism Immortal play to buy himself more than enough room to breathe. A combination of Colossi, Disruptors and the Zerg being economically bankrupt made it so the killing move from Dear was a foregone conclusion in a game he honestly should have lost.

    • Ever Dream | While going for Glaives again only to unironically fight Roaches with his Adepts looked quite ridiculous at first, some fancy Stalker warp ins once again sabotaged the Zerg's ability to make units and as the Protoss put down a third Nexus while transitioning to Blink Immortal it was clear Armani felt pressured to do something about it. This time, however, Dear's forces weren't stuck behind a wall so not only was the attack denied and base saved, the Protoss simply devastated the low econ army and set up an unwinnable game state of 3 base vs 3 base in PvZ. While what followed was a fiesta of truly stupid proportions - once again letting Lings into his main, terrible control over the Warp Prism and Immortals, losing his third Nexus to a measly counter attack and allowing Swarm to sneak into his base for what felt like the millionth time again tonight - it was clear not even Dear could lose this game as the low tier low supply Zerg army got smashed by A-Move Immortal Stalker.

    I'm really glad TY showed up today packing heat, since everyone else looked pale in comparison; the lack of upsets also made the day slightly less exciting, however I've mentioned before temporary excitement isn't really worth that much when you look at what usually happens after that in the later Rounds, so I'm personally okay with "boring" Group stages.

    • Match of the Night - unarguable, any time you see Mech on this level and even play like today it's just something special; TY really made everyone else tonight look like Diamond players when compared to what he brought, if you love masterclass performances how can you not pick M3, with G1 in particular being mind-boggling and G3 just disgustingly good for TY.

    Finally, here are some of my closing thoughts on each player:

    • TY has finally arrived in 2020, it's about damn time, truly a monstrous performance from the player turned caster turned player. I completely understand this kind of level isn't really sustainable, but I can't help hoping we get to see this form translate over into the next Rounds versus more difficult competition, because that would mean some seriously killer Starcraft games on the horizon - imagine this TY versus INnoVation, Maru, Dark in a Bo5/Bo7, where do I sign up?!

    • Dear really benefited from how well balanced this Group was, considering the not-even-Dark-Horse of the night was a level below him, meaning an average performance was enough to get him to the Ro16. Deserved critique aside, we know this Protoss player is capable of so much more and I hope we get to see it in the upcoming Rounds, because otherwise it'll be a short night for the once upon a time Royal Roader.

    • Armani's best matchup has to be ZvT, he got caught off-guard slightly in one of the games due to playing against an outdated style, but other than that you can tell the guy is really good at least there. Unfortunately, that alone just won't cut it at this level, you could tell by the end of the night that the Zerg had no idea how to win in ZvP, was permanently stuck either desperately defending or attacking to a fault and that's just not going to work against seasoned veterans. I think with some coaching or better practice partners Armani could really come into his own, sadly he's just not there yet.

    • Bomber was himself tonight, I think that's the most polite way you could put it. There were no unlucky moments and hardly any surprises, we know who he is at this point and it doesn't seem like he's able or willing to change, so he lost to the better players accordingly. Still, his ability to macro has always been awe-inspiring and as long as he keeps playing I'm sure eventually his control will be back up to par, which he's going to need if he wants to win while being this one dimensional at the highest level of play.

    As always, if you think differently let everyone know why in the comments below.

    Catch you on Wednesday for Group F, where SpeCial will pay his respects to the poor souls trapped in there with him, namely some random Protoss boy called Stats, the human yo-yo slash tornado in terms of performances Hurricane and just one of the greatest players to touch this game, refusing to let our nostalgia die, TaeJa.

    Thanks as always for reading & see you when I see you! (:

    -M

    submitted by /u/d1MnZz
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    StarCraft: Remastered - Overlord fail vs 4 Pool & Cannon rush

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 08:01 PM PDT

    Diamond but not a Diamond

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 03:50 PM PDT

    Longtime SC/2 player but brand new to Ladder.

    My MMR is around 2k and I am Terran Silver 3. Yet the graphic shows me as a Diamond. I really don't care about that because I know I am a Silver.

    Wwhen I start a Ranked 1v1, sometimes people in game in chat freak out that I am listed as a Diamond. I have to overexplain that I am not a Diamond.

    Real question: how does one look at the Ranking of your opponent during a match? I can't figure that out.

    submitted by /u/joseph-louthan
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    A natural gift for strategy

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 10:13 AM PDT

    Twitch Plays Starcraft is online! Control your units via chat

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 05:18 AM PDT

    Watch this before watching GSL Code S 2020 Season 1 for best results

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 04:37 PM PDT

    Battle of the Americas #13 is live!

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 03:31 PM PDT

    Smurfers please be gentle to us newcomers

    Posted: 26 Apr 2020 01:04 AM PDT

    Hello everyone, I have just started this game called Starcraft 3 weeks ago, am climbing my way into platinum. But I find it become increasingly difficult. Is it common to have met up with opponents with around 300 apm in platinum? I have been matched against some today and failed to achieve victory. Bronze and silver have these problems too but not that common or maybe they were being gentle :3

    KR server (Do servers even matter)

    submitted by /u/XIMainFizzX
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    terrans playing CS GO

    Posted: 26 Apr 2020 01:02 AM PDT

    Me and my friend are gold players and just got matched against a team of masters. Is ranked matchmaking a total lie?

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 11:34 PM PDT

    We're both gold league in teams and we got matched against a team of masters players, 1 of them being grandmasters. Obviously we lost because there is litearlly no way we can win against that. What is the point of ranked matchmaking exactly? I thought that we'd be put with people who have our same rank.

    submitted by /u/yenni1600
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    TSL 5 Baby!

    Posted: 25 Apr 2020 04:56 AM PDT
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